Posted by adam.dada on November 29th, 2007
Zion, IL
By A.B. Dada
—
I was browsing the web this morning, doing some casual searches for a few topics I’m interested in. I always do a search for Islamofascism, to try to see what confusion (and sometimes hatred) I come across. Today, I came across a blog that two of my searches hit: Ron Paul, and Islamofascist. That blog is titled UnderAgeThinker, and the post is titled Ron Paul Shoots Himself in the Foot and His Campaign in the Head.
From UAT’s post:
The Islamofascists are waging a holy war. Ron Paul doesn’t seem to get this. They truly have faith that what they are doing is the will of Allah and is therefore not only justified but obligatory. When they say that they are waging jihad it is not just rhetoric, they mean it. It is not difficult to see why they are fighting, it is not because we have a base in Saudi Arabia, it is because their religion tells them to.
I am a Christian, but I find that it is very important to understand all the world’s religions, not just to inform myself of what people believe, but also to see where the similarities are. When it comes to Islam, I truly do believe that Islam is mostly a religion of peace, just as one could say that Judeo-Christianity is mostly a religion of peace. Christianity, by itself, is not debatable in terms of its purpose: Christianity is solely a religion of peace. Augustine, and many Christian Thinkers after him, were wrong to believe in Just War Theory or any non-peaceful action as approved by Jesus Christ or God. Even the Muslims advocate Christ as a peacemaker, and bless His name by following it with the words “peace be upon Him.” In the Koran, Muslims believe that the “End Times” will occur with Christ returning to vanquish to foes of God. How funny that the Muslims that Christofascists hate are the ones who understand that Christ was purely peaceful, and the Christians are the ones who think that the Bible allows for any war by the faithful.
UAT quotes a much-maligned Surrah (”book”) of the Koran, which is Surrah 8:39. His quote is (wrongly) here:
So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief ) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone
This is the quote most often used by the Christofascists to make Christians believe that Muslims want to come “over here” and kill us. They believe the Koran advocates murder of non-believers, but that is not the case. Here’s a short study on Surrah 8, and why it is important to not take any holy book out of context, including the Bible.
Surrah 8’s context is specific: how to handle war that comes to a Muslim area. This is not advocating that Muslims go to war, but it tells the Muslims how to handle a war that is waged on them. When you read Surrah 8, you immediately see the connection to the Middle East, the United States foreign policy there (for 60+ years), and why the anti-US Muslims are receiving more and more support. From the Koran that we have (we have all faith holy books for reference, sometimes in various translations) at home, the same verse of Surrah 8:39 is as follows:
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
As you can see from the verse I typed up, it does not say to fight everyone until all in the World agrees, it says to fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression. This is a key phrase within the Surrah, because it shows the advocation for fighting if you are oppressed. It does not say take the fight elsewhere. To understand this entire Surrah, I feel the need to open up the entire set of verses, which I will address one by one. For Christians who wonder why I would “defend” the Muslim holy book, I do so because often times Christianity is battled because someone focuses on one phrase out of context. It is my belief that many Christians take one verse out of context, which is why I am adamantly against the idea of preaching a sermon based on disparate verses rather than teaching a sermon focuses solely on the context of the Book, the people who are the topic of the book, and a view on multiple translations as well as comparisons to Old Testament Prophecy regarding the verses. Too many Christians are taught the Bible from Pastors and Preachers who jump around and don’t focus on context — it is important to READ what you believe, rather than just listen to opinion and interpretation. I am NOT defending the Koran as God’s Word, nor am I advocating support or detraction of it.
Koran, Surrah 8:1: They ask thee concerning spoils of war. Say: “These spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Apostle: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Apostle, if ye do believe.”
Surrah 8 begins by addressing the topic: the spoils of war. Anything “earned” during a war is to be given to Allah (God) by the believers. They are told to fear God, and be good to one another. It says here, if you believe in God, obey God. It does not say to force obedience to non-believers. Christians also have the same advocation: believe in God, but don’t force that obedience on non-believers. Here, Muslims and Christians can agree.
Koran, Surrah 8:2: For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put their entire trust in their Lord;
This is a definition of what “believer” means. It is very similar to both the Judaic guidance and the Christian advocation: a Believer is someone who feels a tremor in their hearts when God is brought up, and they find their faith and trust strengthened when their lives correlate to God’s Word. Again, Muslims and Christians (and Jews) generally agree with these points.
Koran, Surrah 8:3: Who establish regular prayers and spend out of the gifts We have given them for sustenance:
A believer establishes regular prayer, and gives charity of what they receive. Again, Muslims, Christians and Jews agree to this point.
Koran, Surrah 8:4: Such in truth are the believers: they have grades of dignity with their Lord, and forgiveness, and generous sustenance:
Surprising to see the word “forgiveness” in the Koran regarding believers. This verse is debatable as to whether it means God’s forgiveness and sustenance for a believer, or a believer’s forgiveness for others. I know Muslims who accept both as their truth.
Koran, Surrah 8:5: Just as thy Lord ordered thee out of thy house in truth, even though a party among the Believers disliked it,
Remember, Surrah 8 relates to war. Muslims believe that they must be truthful when outside of their own, and even though there are Believers who don’t want to be truthful…
Koran, Surrah 8:6: Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they did see it.
…there is no need to dispute the need.
Koran, Surrah 8:7: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;
The Koran I have says that the Arabic word for “parties” above can also be “aggressors.” Basically, the Koran says that God gave the Muslims two aggressors, and that the Muslim may wish that his aggressor would be unarmed, but God will give the armed aggressor. This has a lot of prophetic meaning to the Muslim in the Middle East, who sees any Imperial force there as an aggressor. Remember, Muslims in the Middle East have had to deal with aggressors and Imperialists for hundreds of years. In recent times, they’ve dealt with the Ottoman Empire (Imperialists aggressing against Muslims), then the French (Imperialists), then the English (Imperialists) and now the United States (Imperialists). Taking a Surrah dealing with war and addressing it to modern times is something that Christians also mistakenly do. But yet, you can’t fault the Muslims for seeing prophetical context between this Surrah and the hundreds of years of Imperialism and murder against them. Still, the Koran here does not advocating spreading the battle outside of their land.
Koran, Surrah 8:8: That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt.
Here it shows that God will justify Truth in the non-believer, and it will be distasteful to the non-believer. It doesn’t advise the Muslim to show the non-believer the truth.
Koran, Surrah 8:9: Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: “I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks.”
Just as in the Bible, the Koran shows that God will assist in the Spiritual Warfare through guidance of angels (jinn).
Koran, Surrah 8:10: Allah made it but a message of hope, and an assurance to your hearts: there is no help except from Allah: and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
A confirmation to Muslims that all hope and assurance comes from God.
Koran, Surrah 8:11: Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.
Here is a text that talks about location: therewith refers to where they are. It does not advocate taking their battle elsewhere.
Koran, Surrah 8:12: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels by saying: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Here we see the word terror, but it is a message to the angels, not to the believers. In this battle of spirtual warfare, God tells Muslims that he will tell the angels that he will smite the believers in the head and hands. This is contextually not a physical attack, but one that is repeated in the Koran over and over, dealing with his vengeance against those who attack non-believers. The Jewish Old Testament also deals with similar issues.
Koran, Surrah 8:13: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels by saying: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Again, we don’t see guidance for the believer to attack, but that God will do it for them. Just as in the Jewish Old Testament, God is the Warrior, not man.
Koran, Surrah 8:14: Thus saith: “Taste ye then of the punishment: for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire.”
Here again we see that the Muslim is told that God will punish others, for those who resist God. This is no different than what Jesus warned of for the end age of the old covenant.
Koran, Surrah 8:15: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.
Again, this Surrah regards war waged against Muslims, not a war that Muslims wage. It says that if an unbeliever wages war against a Muslim, the Muslim should not bow down or turn his back. This is similar to the Old Testament guidance that God gave the ancient Israelites.
Koran, Surrah 8:16: If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop - he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge!
This is a warning to Muslims not to turn their back if they are attacked.
Koran, Surrah 8:17: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest dust, it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth all.
Just like God the Warrior in the Jewish Old Testament, the Muslim God is also the warrior. When a Muslim must defend their home, it is God that wages the battle.
Koran, Surrah 8:18: That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.
This is a powerful verse for Middle Easter Muslims. It is obvious to many, including U.S. troops, that the plans and strategies of the U.S. are feeble. By proposing this as a fulfillment of prophecy BEFORE military action came, it ended up coming true in the eyes of the Muslims. The Jewish Old Testament also has similar verses of prophecy.
Koran, Surrah 8:19: If ye unbelievers prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist from doing wrong, it will be best for you: if ye return an attack, so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily Allah is with those who believe!
This is a warning to those who wish to wage war against the Muslims: if you continue to do so, you will lose. If you stop, it will be best for you. Similar verses are within the Jewish Old Testament. Again, Muslims who knew of this verse before military action feel that prophecy was fulfilled.
Koran, Surrah 8:20: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Apostle, and turn not away from him when ye hear him.
This verse reminds Muslims to stay the course in defense, no matter what.
Koran, Surrah 8:21: Nor be like those who say, “We hear,” but listen not:
Jesus used this very same saying, to listen and mean it, just don’t say “we believe.” When Christians advocate open aggressive war, who is the one who didn’t listen to the Prince of Peace?
Koran, Surrah 8:22: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
Again very connected to the Bible. God believes the worst are those who don’t understand His Commands.
Koran, Surrah 8:23: If Allah had found in them any good. He would indeed have made them listen: if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined believing.
This is similar to many Old and New Testament verses. It basically gives God the power to Judge others.
Koran, Surrah 8:24: O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall be gathered.
A verse of martyrdom which is similar to the verses of martyrdom in the Old and New Testament.
Koran, Surrah 8:25: And fear tumult or oppression, which affecteth not in particular those of you who do wrong: and know that Allah is strict in punishment.
This tells that God is the only one who can use tumult and oppression against others. It sets up another verse later.
Koran, Surrah 8:26: Call to mind when ye were a small group, despised through the land, and afraid that men might despoil and kidnap you; But He provided a safe asylum for you, strengthened you with His aid, and gave you Good things for sustenance: that ye might be grateful.
Another verse used to show fulfillment of prophecy. When the Muslims were a minority in the Middle East, they were despoiled and kidnapped. Muslims believe that God provided the asylum within the Middle East for them, and they’re to be grateful for it. This also shows that it is specific to the land they are on, not guidance to take the land of others.
Koran, Surrah 8:27: O ye that believe! betray not the trust of Allah and the Apostle, nor misappropriate knowingly things entrusted to you.
This speaks of not taking advantage of the things given to you by God. Reminds me of both Bible books.
Koran, Surrah 8:28: And know ye that your possessions and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with Whom lies your highest reward.
Material possession, even family, are merely a setup for the ultimate reward: God. Christians have similar verses to be guided by. Even Christ ignored his blood family when faith needs were present.
Koran, Surrah 8:29: O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion to decide between right and wrong, remove from you evil that may afflict you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded.
Here we see that Muslims believe that God has given them the ability to see right and wrong, and be protected from evil. Many Christians believe they have the Holy Spirit to help in this case as well.
Koran, Surrah 8:30: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out of thy home. They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
How can a Muslim ignore this verse? For hundreds of years, non-Muslims have tried to push them out of the Middle East, where they have been for 1200+ years. Time and again, they are not defeated. Again, this verse is used as prophecy for their reason to stay. It does not advocate pushing themselves to the world of unbelievers, but to be warned of unbelievers who attack them. “of thy home” is key here.
Koran, Surrah 8:31; When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: “We have heard this before: if we wished, we could say words like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients.”
Here is a verse that is also used as a prophecy fulfillment. Muslims have heard the words of non-Muslims as rescuers before over and over. The Muslims can respond by saying “We’ve heard what you’re saying since ancient time, and the words mean nothing.” Intriguing to me.
Koran, Surrah 8:32: Remember how they said: “O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones from the sky, or send us a grievous penalty.”
This verse regards the older Imperialists who questioned Muslims by saying “If God exists, then let Him rain down a shower of stones.” Christ also was questioned by the Pharisees (the Imperialists of Judea) and responded by telling them not to test God. This verse is the same idea.
Koran, Surrah 8:33: But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.
Muslims believe that God refused to send the stones from the sky, because Muslims were there. This again points to the verses on war dealing with the land they’re on, not foreign land they should attack.
Koran, Surrah 8:34: But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out unbelievers from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
Here’s the key verse of the Surrah: the sacred Mosque. This means the Middle East specifically. It doesn’t tell Muslims to go and conquer the world, but to defend the Middle East as their own, which they occupied for 1200+ years.
Koran, Surrah 8:35: Their prayer at the House of Allah is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: Its only answer can be, “Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed.”
This also speaks of location: the House of Allah (Middle East Mosque). If the enemy is there, they’re making fun of the holy Mosque, and they’re blasphemers. Again, intriguing.
Koran, Surrah 8:36: The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder man from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;
This is also damning evidence against Christofascists. Muslims can see connection between this verse and modern Middle East. The Imperialists for ages have used their wealth to corrupt the leaders of the Middle East, and the Muslims believe this hindreds Islam and their path to God. Can you not see the connection?
Koran, Surrah 8:37: In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.
God is the Judge, according to Muslims (and Christians).
Koran, Surrah 8:38: Say to the Unbelievers, if they desist from not believing, their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already a matter of warning for them.
A warning from God to believe. Christianity and Judaism have similar verses in warning.
Koran, Surrah 8:39: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
Here’s the verse that UAT quoted incorrectly, and out of context. The word for “everywhere” is a specific word not meaning World, but everywhere the Muslims are (in the Middle East, specifically). They are to defend their home against all tumult or oppression, until the unbelievers leave.
Koran, Surrah 8:40: If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.
If the unbelievers refuse to leave, God will protect the Muslims. Judaism has similar verses. Christians are told to not resist force, though.
Koran, Surrah 8:41: And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire in war, a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Apostle, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.
This speaks of the war of defense: if the believers collect anything (booty), they are to give a fifth to God. The Israelites also had similar verses. Christians, though, can not go to war, so they’d have no spoils of war.
Koran, Surrah 8:42: Remember ye were on the hither side of the valley, and they on the farther side, and the caravan on lower ground than ye. Even if ye had made a mutual appointment to meet, ye would certainly have failed in the appointment: But , that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted; that those who died might die after a clear Sign, and those who lived might live after a Clear Sign. And verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth all.
This tells the Muslims that the unbeliever who comes to attack is the weak element. The Muslims are aware of their surroundings, and have the power of the same tactics than any defender would use in their home. It even warns Muslims that their enemy may make promises to meet, but they will break them. This has happened to Muslims in the Middle East for hundreds of years.
The Surrah continues for another few dozen verses, but I wanted to lead up to the point that UAT quoted. Out of context, and translated improperly, it looks very negative. Once you review the entire text, you see that the point is not made to go out and kill the unbelievers (although a VERY small minority of Muslims do believe that). Because these “prophecies” seem to be coming true in the Middle East, more and more Muslims are listening to the minority who is trying to get them to defend themselves against aggressors.
I am not agreeing with any Muslims, or detracting them. The Koran is not my holy book, but it is the holy book of billions of believers. If you do not review what they believe, you can not just pick a verse willy-nilly and say “This is what they believe.”
Ron Paul is right: it is the fascism of the United States Government that is building hatred towards the People. The People are not the aggressors, the government is, but we are being blamed for what we allow our government to do. As the war continues to fail, we will find ourselves against an “enemy” who feels that prophecy is being fulfilled. As a Christian, I can not kill another man, even an unbeliever. If Christians would end their fascist reign, they could be a beacon of peace, charity, love, forgiveness and sharing as Christ was.
Unfortunately, most Christofascists have the same beliefs that the Israelites did, as well as the aggressive minority Muslims. It is time to read your Bible yourself, and understand what Christ spoke — harm no one, love all.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Very interesting, and I’m feeling upset that I’m pressed for time today and can’t read it all.
I do want to observe that what people’s religion teaches is often very different from what they actually believe and say. In discussing and studying religion with people, I usually have to deal with four religions:
* my religion
* their misconceptions of my religion
* their religion, according to what it officially teaches
* their religion, as they understand it
So, dealing with just what people say about their beliefs, I’m told two things:
* There are Muslims who say they are going to fight and fight until we are forced to submit to Islam, or
* There are Muslims who are fighting because they perceive that they have been aggressed against and are defending themselves.
What I need to find out to resolve all this is what the fighting Muslims actually say. And I’ll admit I’ve pretty much ignored that. But I’m sure it’s been censored somewhat in our media, as well. Since the war is actually not as high of an issue with me as it is with most people, and since I’m not currently offering it any support (so I know I’m not guilty of supporting wrongdoing), I don’t feel a huge urgency to resolve this, but I’d like to look at it at some point in time.
So … where’s the best place to start reading and viewing what people like Osama bin Laden and other militant Muslim leaders are actually saying?
I’ve been reading Richard Maybury’s The Thousand Year War in the Mideast. This is one of the books in the Uncle Eric series I’ve told you so much about. In previous books he said that all religions teach what he considers to be the two fundamental laws (do not aggress against others or their property; do all that you have agreed to do), his personal formulation of what you and I would consider to be the base morality upon which all human beings can and must agree. In this book, without addressing the issue of whether or not Muhammad actually was inspired by God, he asserts that Muhammad was also a businessman and that Muhammad brought about Muslim economic prosperity by propagating a religion that taught these two fundamental laws, sparking the Muslim enlightenment and prosperity of the middle ages. (Maybury and I are agreed, and I’m sure you are as well, that a society which observes these laws will be blessed with spectacular prosperity to the degree to which they adhere to them, although we may not yet have seen a society that does so perfectly.)
November 29th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Take your time reading it — and also understand that there ARE various translations of the Koran, just as there are of the New and Old Testaments. Some Muslims, but not most, of course disagree that the Koran can be translated to English, and there are some Arabic words that can’t be translated properly (as there are Aramaic and Hebrew words that don’t translate to English well).
When it comes to Islam, it is a very difficult line to cross for the Christian to attempt to actually read another religion’s holy book. Thankfully, I come from families with a variety of religious doctrines, including various Christian ones, and I was always open to seek the truth.
As to Mohammed’s inspiration by God, it isn’t my place to judge his actions. The Koran has so many similarities to the Old and New Testaments, that there are times that it does have a Divine feel, but there are also times when it is obvious that there are flaws verses what I believe the Bible was set to do. Of course, my own Christian doctrine is significantly different than what most Evangelicals would consider Truth, so it is hard to submit my concerns with the Koran since I also have similar concerns with how the Bible is read. What I think God was saying and what many Christians think are different, to the point that my views are outcast by some (but not all).
The issue of war is not a huge issue for me either, but I do feel called to discuss it with people of faith, as well as my friends and family outside of faith. There are blatant mistruths on many sides, and when the so-called Christian Leaders step up and start producing obvious un-biblical reasoning, someone needs to be there to call them off. We’re called to watch over our flock first, yes, but when someone else misuses the title, I think there’s an obvious debate that needs to happen. This is one area where I know in my heart that many Christian leaders are wrong, and some utilize the untruths for power, control, and income (not all, just some). Many lesser leaders are led in a bad direction because of this.
What I hope people take from what I wrote is this: Read your holy book yourself. Don’t follow a guide or a specific sermon to read it, just read it. Book by book, chapter by chapter. Ask yourself: What was God trying to teach here? What effect does it have on previous things that God said to others, or did through others?
While I don’t believe God ever changes, I do believe He meant to teach many lessons, and newer lessons were based on the lessons of previous men’s failure to God. That, to me, is a key element in the story and history of the Bible. Every single verse is NOT meant to be followed any more, and much of the Bible is just a ladder building up to its end. The Koran is not written this way, though, so there are definitely elements that Muslims take as “constant truths” which different from Christian doctrine.
If I had to make a comparison, I would say that the Koran is more akin to the version of the Old Testament that the Israelites (ancient, not modern) were called to do. Since I feel that God closed the book on the Israelites (ancient, not modern), I don’t feel those processes, advocations or guidances are proper any longer. That’s for me, not for all.
If I had to rate the 15 or so holy books I’ve read (and in many translations), the Koran is definitely there in my top 3 as “something that has some connection to the Divinely inspired Bible.” It isn’t my holy book, and it is not my guide, and it is not my story, but it is one that billions of people look to for help, hope and sustenance. If I portray myself as an aggressor, those people are lost from me, and my beliefs, for good. If I portray myself as a peaceful advocate of peace, love, respect, forgiveness, acceptance, non-resistance, non-aggression and charity, there is a chance, maybe slim, that some people may end up agreeing with what I have to say and live.
That, to me, is the essence of Evangelizing Christ’s words and actions. The current Christian leadership base has fallen far, far from what Christ said, regardless of how they’re trying to interpret Christ in relation to how God spoke to the Israelites. MUCH of what Christ taught has more to do with past example and prophecy than modern example and direction. Some things he spoke about (for example, homosexuality) seem to cover more about the marriage of Bride-Church and Christ-Husband than it seems about how mortals deal with mortals. Christ’s element was the Spirtual Truth, which may have almost no relation to mortal truth.
Let me know if you have questions, comments or criticisms.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
I copletely agree with you that we should know our own Bible and study other faiths. Christian do not do near enough of this and it is undefendable. You seem very well read and I’m sure you have arrived at your conclusions through careful study. However I must dissent with you on a few points.
First, “Islamofascist” is a term used to describe people who murder their own sisters because they were raped, who behead journalist, and do it because they believe Allah requires it. I’m not saying Allah does or does not, but that is what they believe. To call someone a “Christofascist” is to equate them with the Islamofascists accept that they believe they are doing the will of Christ. That is a powerfull thing to say. And you at least imply, that I am a Christofascist because I wrote an article critical of Ron Paul. I think that is going too far.
Secondly, I do not dispute that most Muslims are peaceful. All I said was that the terrorists believe they are doing the will of Allah. I make no claim as to if this is the correct understanding of the Quran or not but, it is their understanding.
Thirdly, As you yourself said, there are different translations of the Quran. Your complaint about the translation I used seems to be (based on your bolding of the text) based on the first half of the verse. (I do not deffend the translation, honestly I’m not even sure what translation it was and I think I will switch it to Pickthall because of the complaints.) Yet I was refering to the latter half, “and all submit to the religion of Allah alone.” The translation you cite says the same thing in more eloquent language, “and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.” So I think the translation is more or less irrelevant to your criticism.
Finally, How did I take Surah 8:39 out of context? I let it speak for itself. I didn’t even write comentary on it.
In all sincerity, Joseph W. Kraft, UnderAgeThinker
“Truth is Immortal!”
November 30th, 2007 at 11:16 am
As far as reading the Qur’an, I think I can handle that if and when I want to get back to it (read most of it in high school). I’m talking about reading to find out what today’s militant Muslims actually claim to be fighting for: are they claiming to be trying to conquer, like the right-wing “warmongers” claim, or are they claiming to be fighting for defense against aggressors?
December 24th, 2007 at 11:42 am
I have heard from more than one source that one problem with the ‘peace’ verses in the Koran is that according to Muslim Doctrine, the Koran is to be read chronologically, and a later hadith supercedes an earlier one.
Have you taken this traditional Muslim approach to interpretation into account?
For example:
nfortunately, the Islamic principle of abrogation runs in the opposite chronological direction in relation to violence. Because the commands to fight and kill in the Koran are considered by Muslims to be among the recitations made very late in the life of the prophet of Islam — at a time when his conquest of Arabia was almost complete — Muslims scholars have been inclined to read the peaceful texts as subordinate to the later ones.
In other words, Muslims seeking to find a peaceful message in the Koran must fight not only the plain meaning of the Koran’s text and the current fashion for militancy, but also the arrow of Muslim history.
Interpreting the words of Muslim scripture so that they pose no threat to peaceful coexistence with non-believers thus seems a large challenge. In view of the high stakes in the world today, however, it is certainly a challenge worth taking up. Otherwise, Canadian proponents of multiculturalism will have a harder time arguing that traditional Islam is just another peaceful element in Canada’s multicultural quilt.
- Gordon Nickel has a PhD in the earliest commentaries on the Koran and teaches in British Columbia.
‘FIGHT IN THE WAY OF ALLAH THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU’
What follows are selected Koranic references to fighting and killing infidels.
- Baqara (2):190 - “And fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah those who fight you.”
- Baqara (2):193 - “Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s”
- Baqara (2):244 - “So fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.”
- Nisaa’ (4):76 - “Those who are believers fight (yuqaatiloona) in the way of Allah, and the unbelievers fight in the idols’ way. So fight (qaatiloo) the friends of Satan; surely the guile of Satan is ever feeble.”
- al-Anfaal (8):39 - “Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s entirely.”
- al-Taubah (9):12 - “But if they break their oaths after their covenant and thrust at your religion, then fight (qaatiloo) the leaders of unbelief.”
- al-Taubah (9):29 - “Fight (qaatiloo) those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.”
- al-Taubah (9):123 - “O believers, fight (qaatiloo) the unbelievers (kuffaar) who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness (ghilza).”
- Baqara (2):191 - “And slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come upon them”
- Baqara (2):191 - “But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, slay them (aqtuloohum) — such is the recompense of unbelievers.”
- Nisaa’ (4):89 - “then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you find them”
- Nisaa’ (4):91 - “If they withdraw not from you, and offer you peace, and restrain their hands, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come on them; against them we have given you a clear authority.”
- al-Taubah (9):5 - “Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay (aqtuloo) the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush.”
- Nisaa’ (4):74 - “So let them fight (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah who sell the present life for the world to come; and whosoever fights (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah and is slain, or conquers, we shall bring him a mighty wage.”
- Muhammad (47):4 - “When you meet the unbelievers, smite (darba) their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads.”
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/33Rlg/Islm/RlgPeace.htm
December 24th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Somehow I lost my quote marks- everything above which follows ‘for example:’ is quoted from The Road To Emmasaus website.