For example:
nfortunately, the Islamic principle of abrogation runs in the opposite chronological direction in relation to violence. Because the commands to fight and kill in the Koran are considered by Muslims to be among the recitations made very late in the life of the prophet of Islam — at a time when his conquest of Arabia was almost complete — Muslims scholars have been inclined to read the peaceful texts as subordinate to the later ones.

In other words, Muslims seeking to find a peaceful message in the Koran must fight not only the plain meaning of the Koran’s text and the current fashion for militancy, but also the arrow of Muslim history.

Interpreting the words of Muslim scripture so that they pose no threat to peaceful coexistence with non-believers thus seems a large challenge. In view of the high stakes in the world today, however, it is certainly a challenge worth taking up. Otherwise, Canadian proponents of multiculturalism will have a harder time arguing that traditional Islam is just another peaceful element in Canada’s multicultural quilt.

- Gordon Nickel has a PhD in the earliest commentaries on the Koran and teaches in British Columbia.

‘FIGHT IN THE WAY OF ALLAH THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU’

What follows are selected Koranic references to fighting and killing infidels.

- Baqara (2):190 - “And fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah those who fight you.”

- Baqara (2):193 - “Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s”

- Baqara (2):244 - “So fight (qaatiloo) in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.”

- Nisaa’ (4):76 - “Those who are believers fight (yuqaatiloona) in the way of Allah, and the unbelievers fight in the idols’ way. So fight (qaatiloo) the friends of Satan; surely the guile of Satan is ever feeble.”

- al-Anfaal (8):39 - “Fight them (qaatiloohum), till there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s entirely.”

- al-Taubah (9):12 - “But if they break their oaths after their covenant and thrust at your religion, then fight (qaatiloo) the leaders of unbelief.”

- al-Taubah (9):29 - “Fight (qaatiloo) those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.”

- al-Taubah (9):123 - “O believers, fight (qaatiloo) the unbelievers (kuffaar) who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness (ghilza).”

- Baqara (2):191 - “And slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come upon them”

- Baqara (2):191 - “But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, slay them (aqtuloohum) — such is the recompense of unbelievers.”

- Nisaa’ (4):89 - “then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you find them”

- Nisaa’ (4):91 - “If they withdraw not from you, and offer you peace, and restrain their hands, take them, and slay them (aqtuloohum) wherever you come on them; against them we have given you a clear authority.”

- al-Taubah (9):5 - “Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay (aqtuloo) the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush.”

- Nisaa’ (4):74 - “So let them fight (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah who sell the present life for the world to come; and whosoever fights (yuqaatil) in the way of Allah and is slain, or conquers, we shall bring him a mighty wage.”

- Muhammad (47):4 - “When you meet the unbelievers, smite (darba) their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads.”
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/33Rlg/Islm/RlgPeace.htm

First, “Islamofascist” is a term used to describe people who murder their own sisters because they were raped, who behead journalist, and do it because they believe Allah requires it. I’m not saying Allah does or does not, but that is what they believe. To call someone a “Christofascist” is to equate them with the Islamofascists accept that they believe they are doing the will of Christ. That is a powerfull thing to say. And you at least imply, that I am a Christofascist because I wrote an article critical of Ron Paul. I think that is going too far.

Secondly, I do not dispute that most Muslims are peaceful. All I said was that the terrorists believe they are doing the will of Allah. I make no claim as to if this is the correct understanding of the Quran or not but, it is their understanding.

Thirdly, As you yourself said, there are different translations of the Quran. Your complaint about the translation I used seems to be (based on your bolding of the text) based on the first half of the verse. (I do not deffend the translation, honestly I’m not even sure what translation it was and I think I will switch it to Pickthall because of the complaints.) Yet I was refering to the latter half, “and all submit to the religion of Allah alone.” The translation you cite says the same thing in more eloquent language, “and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.” So I think the translation is more or less irrelevant to your criticism.

Finally, How did I take Surah 8:39 out of context? I let it speak for itself. I didn’t even write comentary on it.

In all sincerity, Joseph W. Kraft, UnderAgeThinker
“Truth is Immortal!”

When it comes to Islam, it is a very difficult line to cross for the Christian to attempt to actually read another religion’s holy book. Thankfully, I come from families with a variety of religious doctrines, including various Christian ones, and I was always open to seek the truth.

As to Mohammed’s inspiration by God, it isn’t my place to judge his actions. The Koran has so many similarities to the Old and New Testaments, that there are times that it does have a Divine feel, but there are also times when it is obvious that there are flaws verses what I believe the Bible was set to do. Of course, my own Christian doctrine is significantly different than what most Evangelicals would consider Truth, so it is hard to submit my concerns with the Koran since I also have similar concerns with how the Bible is read. What I think God was saying and what many Christians think are different, to the point that my views are outcast by some (but not all).

The issue of war is not a huge issue for me either, but I do feel called to discuss it with people of faith, as well as my friends and family outside of faith. There are blatant mistruths on many sides, and when the so-called Christian Leaders step up and start producing obvious un-biblical reasoning, someone needs to be there to call them off. We’re called to watch over our flock first, yes, but when someone else misuses the title, I think there’s an obvious debate that needs to happen. This is one area where I know in my heart that many Christian leaders are wrong, and some utilize the untruths for power, control, and income (not all, just some). Many lesser leaders are led in a bad direction because of this.

What I hope people take from what I wrote is this: Read your holy book yourself. Don’t follow a guide or a specific sermon to read it, just read it. Book by book, chapter by chapter. Ask yourself: What was God trying to teach here? What effect does it have on previous things that God said to others, or did through others?

While I don’t believe God ever changes, I do believe He meant to teach many lessons, and newer lessons were based on the lessons of previous men’s failure to God. That, to me, is a key element in the story and history of the Bible. Every single verse is NOT meant to be followed any more, and much of the Bible is just a ladder building up to its end. The Koran is not written this way, though, so there are definitely elements that Muslims take as “constant truths” which different from Christian doctrine.

If I had to make a comparison, I would say that the Koran is more akin to the version of the Old Testament that the Israelites (ancient, not modern) were called to do. Since I feel that God closed the book on the Israelites (ancient, not modern), I don’t feel those processes, advocations or guidances are proper any longer. That’s for me, not for all.

If I had to rate the 15 or so holy books I’ve read (and in many translations), the Koran is definitely there in my top 3 as “something that has some connection to the Divinely inspired Bible.” It isn’t my holy book, and it is not my guide, and it is not my story, but it is one that billions of people look to for help, hope and sustenance. If I portray myself as an aggressor, those people are lost from me, and my beliefs, for good. If I portray myself as a peaceful advocate of peace, love, respect, forgiveness, acceptance, non-resistance, non-aggression and charity, there is a chance, maybe slim, that some people may end up agreeing with what I have to say and live.

That, to me, is the essence of Evangelizing Christ’s words and actions. The current Christian leadership base has fallen far, far from what Christ said, regardless of how they’re trying to interpret Christ in relation to how God spoke to the Israelites. MUCH of what Christ taught has more to do with past example and prophecy than modern example and direction. Some things he spoke about (for example, homosexuality) seem to cover more about the marriage of Bride-Church and Christ-Husband than it seems about how mortals deal with mortals. Christ’s element was the Spirtual Truth, which may have almost no relation to mortal truth.

Let me know if you have questions, comments or criticisms.

I do want to observe that what people’s religion teaches is often very different from what they actually believe and say. In discussing and studying religion with people, I usually have to deal with four religions:
* my religion
* their misconceptions of my religion
* their religion, according to what it officially teaches
* their religion, as they understand it

So, dealing with just what people say about their beliefs, I’m told two things:
* There are Muslims who say they are going to fight and fight until we are forced to submit to Islam, or
* There are Muslims who are fighting because they perceive that they have been aggressed against and are defending themselves.

What I need to find out to resolve all this is what the fighting Muslims actually say. And I’ll admit I’ve pretty much ignored that. But I’m sure it’s been censored somewhat in our media, as well. Since the war is actually not as high of an issue with me as it is with most people, and since I’m not currently offering it any support (so I know I’m not guilty of supporting wrongdoing), I don’t feel a huge urgency to resolve this, but I’d like to look at it at some point in time.

So … where’s the best place to start reading and viewing what people like Osama bin Laden and other militant Muslim leaders are actually saying?

I’ve been reading Richard Maybury’s The Thousand Year War in the Mideast. This is one of the books in the Uncle Eric series I’ve told you so much about. In previous books he said that all religions teach what he considers to be the two fundamental laws (do not aggress against others or their property; do all that you have agreed to do), his personal formulation of what you and I would consider to be the base morality upon which all human beings can and must agree. In this book, without addressing the issue of whether or not Muhammad actually was inspired by God, he asserts that Muhammad was also a businessman and that Muhammad brought about Muslim economic prosperity by propagating a religion that taught these two fundamental laws, sparking the Muslim enlightenment and prosperity of the middle ages. (Maybury and I are agreed, and I’m sure you are as well, that a society which observes these laws will be blessed with spectacular prosperity to the degree to which they adhere to them, although we may not yet have seen a society that does so perfectly.)